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J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee won the Throwdown.

DetroitFan* BS: Is A Vigilante

J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee

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Dan Marino Was A Better Pure Quarterback Than Otto Graham Was - This One Is For Jenkster

DetroitFan* BS: Is A Vigilante said 05/16, 08:39 PM
Now, 4 of Graham's 7 championships came from the AAFC, which was a watered-down league that was soon absorbed by the NFL. Also, the anchor of the Browns then was the DEFENSE, and NOT Otto Graham. Their great defense won them their championships, Otto Graham happened to be on a great team, who was an accurate passer.

Here is how I come to this conclusion. Graham played with 7 HOFers on his team, and half of them were DEFENSIVE players. He also had a HOF FB to help along with 3 HOF Offensive Linemen to go with it. So, I think more credit goes to the Offensive Line and Defense than Otto Graham for ALL of their Championships and Glory in the 40's and 50's.

Now, here are a few statistics we can compare. It may be true that Graham had a higher TD%, but the INT's would take big part in this too, because his INT% was a whopping 5.1%, while Dan Marino's was only 3%. The completion percentage will now play a role in this thing. Otto Graham attempted 2,626 Passes, and had a 55.8% Completion percentage. Now, Dan Marino attempted 8,358 passes and had a 59.4% Completion Percentage. Dan Marino threw more passes, completed them more, and threw a lower INT%. This making Marino more accurate.

J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee said 05/17, 12:27 AM
Well this starts the highly anticipated throwdown. My choice, Otto Graham. Now I know you have stats on your side, but anyone who knows Otto knows one thing. Hes a winner. THE best the game has ever seen. He played 10 seasons and in all 10 seasons he led his team to the CHAMPIONSHIP GAME. He won 7 of the 10 championships. That is insane. No athlete dominated a field like him. You may say, "but football is a team sport". And yeah, thats true. I don't take winning as a huge factor in judging players but when a guy made the championship game every year and won 70% of the time compared to a guy who never won you have to draw a line. What position in football carries the most weight in a win or lose? A QB of course. He is supposed to control the game and is most responsible for wins and loses. If a player won 1 superbowl compared to a player who won none, no big deal but Graham won 7 ships to Marino's zip. if Graham had as many ATTEMPTS as Marino he would have 131 more touchdowns. Thats the MATH of it using the percentages. The fact is, Graham dominated the league. He put up unimagineable numbers for the time he played in and marino put up numbers when it was common.

DetroitFan* BS: Is A Vigilante said 05/17, 12:39 AM
Now, Dan Marino was consistent during his career, keeping his QB Rating between the 80-95 Range. Now, look at Graham's QB RTG over his career, the numbers are inconsistent:

Graham QB RTG:

1946 - 112.1
1947 - 109.2
1948 - 85.6
1949 - 97.5
1950 - 64.7
1951 - 79.2
1952 - 66.6
1953 - 99.7
1954 - 73.5
1955 - 94.0

Now, here is where Graham will be THRASHED. When Dan Marino was in the NFL, his QB Rating was 86.4. When Graham was in the NFL, and NOT INCLUDING the AAFC, his QB Rating was 79.6. He did not even reach 80 in the NFL. What a shame he couldn't do that great when he played against MORE talent. He just couldn't play that well when he hit the NFL. What do you know? More competition batted his stats around pretty harshly.

Now, with the Championships, when I was talking about it, I meant that his defense had the bigger role during the physical part of the game, and 4 of them were in a league of only 7, 8, or 9 teams.

In Graham's first 3 years of the NFL, his Passer Rating was terrible, and he had a horrible stat line. The team succeeded STILL and won championships. Now, we are all suppose to be lead to believe that they won a lot due to his playing on offense?

J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee said 05/17, 12:52 AM
Well, Graham's rating was 86.6 which is higher than Graham's.

I really wish I cared about those stats, but I just don't. Winning is the goal. You think they sent Marino out there to put up great stats? No, they told him to win and he couldn't even do it once. Graham won 7 out of 10 times. Thats ridiculous.

Comparing Graham's stats to Marino's is just dumb. They played in completely different ERA's. I already told you Graham passed 1.6% more touchdowns more than Marino per attempt. Thats a huge deal. If they had the same number of attempts Graham would have 131 more touchdowns. In my opinion, I think that stats are a moot point. Graham completely dominated the league and was a man among boys put simply.

In Graham's first 3 years in the NFL, he played terrible in his standards yet he still led the league in completeion percentage all 3 years. What don't you get? Things were different back then. You might THINK he did bad, but compared to the other QBs he was still the best even at his worst.
You have the position in which the game is most in their hands and wins on their shoulders. Then you have 1 player with 7 rings and one with 0. At THAT point, I throw stats out the dor

DetroitFan* BS: Is A Vigilante said 05/17, 01:00 AM
You go on about winning, but all this time you never mention once that the Browns had this thing called DEFENSE. 4 of their 11 Defensive players are HOFers right now (Including Graham). That is my point. Graham was sent out there to win, he got the job done, but the real reason they won was because of their defense.

Otto Graham had A LOT of talent around him. Take away his all-star defense, and 3 HOF offensive linemen and you are left with what Dan Marino had. A bunch of players that aren't the greatest players to begin with. I gurantee you, that if you took Dan Marino away from the Dolphins, they would suffer A LOT more than if Otto Graham were taken from the Browns.

Now, you also should know this. Dan Marino played against 19 HOF defenders in his career. The Dolphins team was a 1-Dimensional Offense, yet they passed the ball anyways. Look at the success he had. This is the truth. One player cannot win it all on their own and that is what you are making it sound like.

Defenses went in the games knowing the Dolphins had a great passing game, and not the greatest running game. However, he was still a VERY dominant force there. One player can't do it alone, Graham didn't.

J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee said 05/17, 12:22 PM
NOTE* VOTERS- this argument is about who is the better QB not the best pure passer. Dfan messed up the title but this is all around.

Marino had a HOF center and a HOF COACH on his side. Coach is a big part of the game.

Graham didn't do it alone. I know that and I'm not trying to say he did. BUT, he is clearly the most responsible for his team's success. He is the one who was the centerpeice of the team.

If we were talking the difference of 1 or 2 superbowls then I would have NO problem overlooking this. BUT, when you are looking at the BEST winner of all time and a guy who never won then you have to take that into effect.

Graham can have all the help he wants, but the point is he still won 7. You can say what you want to discredit the man, but in the end, hes still the best winner of all time.

I don't see how this is such a blowout stat wise. Theres a reason Graham was named QB of the 50's and Marino was never a decade QB. Graham dominated the competition of his time a lot more than Marino did. Different times. I'm really shocked that Graham has a better rating and 1.6% better TD pct than Marino. Thats a little embarassing for Marino.

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DFan vs. J.............epic!

Ghosthunter | 05/16/08, 08:41 PM

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Dan Marino Was A Better Pure Quarterback Than Otto Graham Was - This One Is For Jenkster

DetroitFan* BS: Is A Vigilante beat J (Browns 19-0) Carbathlee 26 to 12

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