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C-C-C, we meet again.

This should be fun

I ran out of room BTW, LOL

Oh well, save it for Arg #2

That;s OK, I did too. ;-)

No vote as of yet, but as of right now I am leaning right. Thank god no one chose Brady though. He had an amazing year, but his td record was created by running up the score.

Great first arguments by both people.

I think Manning was the right pick but Bio had a better argument.

I will wait unti lthe TD is completed

I was 4 in '84 and I know of both of the Marks Brothers, they were very good receivers, certainly not nobodies.

Also the difficulty to get into the hall as a receiver (unless you are a Steeler) makes that a moot point.

"Also the difficulty to get into the hall as a receiver (unless you are a Steeler) makes that a moot point."

Their numbers are skewed because PITT ran the ball so much, I think that was taken into consideration.

The sad thing now is that Hines Ward holds all PITT receiving records now and he won't make the HoF.

"wasn't there some rule in 04 that benifited WRs?

Bolt21 | 08/17/08, 11:28 PM "

i brought it up.

Basically the rule change in 2004 meant that defensive players could not hold up the receiver at the line of scrimmage. Basically what it did was it said that a defensive player could only hit a receiver at the snap (push them with their hands) and then had to let them go. They couldn't hit them down to the ground nor could they hold them up there.

Not to mention there was no push-out rule in 84 nor could the ball hit the ground at ANY time during a reception (both seasons occured in years when push-out existed and nowadays the ball can hit the ground if you clearly have control of it)

"Basically the rule change in 2004 meant that defensive players could not hold up the receiver at the line of scrimmage."

That's completely backwards.

What the rule ACTUALLY says is a receiver can't be hit by the CB once they are 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. Thank the Patriots for that one. They can hold them up AT the line all they want to. The illegal contact doesn't occur until they are 5 yards past it.

"What the rule ACTUALLY says is a receiver can't be hit by the CB once they are 5 yards past the line of scrimmage. Thank the Patriots for that one. They can hold them up AT the line all they want to. The illegal contact doesn't occur until they are 5 yards past it."

That's actually the Mel Blount rule which came about in 1978.

You can't hold a WR at the line or you are called for defensive holding. You can ONLY give them a shove to knock them off their route and then you have to let them run.

"You can't hold a WR at the line or you are called for defensive holding. You can ONLY give them a shove to knock them off their route and then you have to let them run."

Sorry. Your only half right. The illegal contact rule WAS in place prior to 2004, but it wasn't enforced. It wasn't a NEW rule in '04, the league mandated that it be followed to the letter in '04.

When I said "hold them up" I wasn't talking about actually holding them. They can push and shove all they want to inside of that 5 yard cushion. AND THEY DO. It wasn't even a rule change, it was just a league mandate to ENFORCE an existing rule.

Very good arguments both sides.

I go to CCC with this one. Manning will start showing up on the all-time greats list - VERY SOON. I personally rank the seasons: 1. Manning, 2. Brady, 3. Marino.

Brady had the O-line and the best receiver of the batch...so even though he went an astonishing 18-1, it is diminished by that fact.

Holding is when you physically grab ahold of a player to prevent him from going anywhere. CB's can still get into a shoving match with a receiver at the line if they want. Hell, a safety can come up and double push if they want to. As long as it's within 5 yards of the line, it's fine. There is no rule that says a receiver has to be given a release prior to him making it 5 yards beyond the LOS.

Bio, I'm curious why you spent so much time arguing against Brady in your second argument when I had already take Manning.

"Moss set the NFL record with 23 receiving TDs, 5 more than Clayton (who's 18 was an NFL record at that time)."

"Brady's season was clearly a product of acquiring the 3 receivers listed in the first argument. "

Were you expecting someone to take Brady and just had to use your prepared arguments? ;-)

Vote right. Widereceivers will always be a product of a great QB, whether its Moss or Duper or Clayton. Look what Moss did in Oakland=zippo.

And here come the haters...

"Widereceivers will always be a product of a great QB"

"Look what Moss did in Oakland=zippo."

Uh, look what Culpepper did without Moss and Carter=zippo.

Get a clue, Cass. You are once again weakly justifying voting against me. Either that or you really DON'T know jack about the NFL. I suppose that's possible.