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  • August 07, 2007 06:54 PM ET

Astros All-time Rotation:

awc1230 (37-13-1) vs Basketball Jesus: CHAMPION! (103-30-6)
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Must to have been in the Astros Organization at one point in time:

List your 5 man rotation in 1st arguement, then argue in 2nd, 3rd. Just a 5 man rotation, no RP.

1. Nolan Ryan- with astros longer than any other team in his career
2. Roger Clemens- with astros for 3 years
3. Randy Johnson- picked up in deadline deal in 1998
4. Johan Santana- drafted by astros, let go of him in Rule 5 draft to Twins
5. Roy Oswalt- drafted in 23th round, still with astros


If you're going with players that were with the organization at one JUST one point in time, you have to include Schilling over Oswalt.

Schilling's one of the most clutch, best postseason pitchers of all time.

He's gone 7-2 with a 2.06 ERA and 104 SO in 109 innings pitched. Oswalt's been good in the playoffs, but he's not that good. Neither Boston nor Arizona would have won the World Series without the contributions of Curt.

Schill's has over 3000 strikeouts, and could end up in the top 10 in SO with another good year or two. He's got great control as well. Schilling's led the league in SO to BB ratio 5 times, and is actually 2nd among all major leaguers.

Curt's barely missed out on the Cy Young. He finished second to Randy Johnson twice, and second to Johan Santana as well.

Oswalt's shown some promise, I'll admit that. But it's too early to project how he'll do for the rest of his career. For now, I'll take Schilling's concrete numbers over Oswalt's potential ones.


Curt has an all time W-L of 213-143. Thats really good, Im not gonan downplay that, along to go with a 3.50 career ERA. But its hard to compare these two pitchers because Curt has has played 20 years whereas Roy has only played 7. I took Oswalt because he is onpace for a MUCH better career. He is onpace for a 327-159 record. That goes along with a 3.11 ERA. So if you compare what Oswalt is on pace fore vs. Schill:
Curt-213- 143 WL, 3.50 ERA, 3091 K
Roy- 327- 159 WL, 3.11 ERA, 3414 K

Its not just that Roy will be better, but he will be A LOT better


With your projections, Oswalt will be playing until he's 43. Few pitchers can play up to that age. There's only four player currently active in the majors that old.

Even if Oswalt plays that long, it's very unlikely he'll avoid all injuries until then.

You're assuming a lot with those projections.

Schilling's put up a HOF caliber CAREER. Oswalt has put together an HOF caliber first 7 years. I think it's reasonable to say Oswalt will play for seven-eight more injury free years. What are his projections then?

218-106, 2270 SO, 3.11 ERA

I know Oswalt's got a better winning percentage, but Schilling played on a losing team for the first 12 out of 13 years of his career. He certainly would have more wins had he played on an average team.

As for Oswalt's ERA, you have to account for the fact Schilling did pitch during the juiced era. Oswalt would probably have a lower career ERA even if Schill had played in the post-roids era, BUT the difference between their ERA would certainly be lower.

Once again, Schilling's had a HOF career, Oswalt's only had a HOF caliber seven years.


Your talking about Curt being clutch in the posteason? Roy has never lost in the postseason, in 8 career games, and has won every time the astros have given him the ball to go to the next round. Roy was also rated the #1 most underrated player by ESPN, and has had a much better start to his career than Schill has. But to go out there and say Schill is so much more clutch than Roy is unfair becuase the BOSOX get so much more attention than the Astros. ESPN, sportscenter, etc. are al obsessed with BOSOX/YANKS, so you get to see a lot more of players like Schill than Roy. ESPN notices roy, but not to the same degree as Curt because boston is a bigger media base. You would know how clutch roy is if you watched astros games. Curt also hasnt ever been the anchor of a rotation that needed help. Roy has been the anchor for houston since day 1. Clemens was in and out, only here as a mentor. Schill has been guided by Randy Johnson in his prime. When Curt went to boston, he was the #1, but had a lot more help than roy did in houston. Roy has done more with his career at this point that Curt had done at the same time. Thats why Im taking Roy over Curt.


Schilling hasn't pitched in Boston for his entire career. He's played in Arizona and Philadelphia for 12 years. He's played 4 years for the Red Sox. If anything, he's been UNDERRATED during the majority of his career, since he pitched for teams that were horrendous. If Curt had pitched in Boston for his entire career, your argument would be legitimate.

Oswalt's got a 3.66 ERA in the postseason in 8 games. Curt's got a 2.06 ERA in 15 games.
Schilling's got a World Series MVP, and will be remembered for the Bloody Sock game forever.

In Oswalt's only World Series Start, he was bad. The White Sox were up 2-0 in the series, and the Astros had to win Game 3 in order to get back into the series. How did Oswalt do? He gave up 5 runs in 6 innings.

You can't debate those numbers. Schilling's been much more clutch.

Comments (14) Add A Comment

August 7, 2007  07:19 PM ET
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Good catch by Jesus. That always sounds funny.

August 7, 2007  07:21 PM ET
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Ill take Oswalts potentail numbers over Curts numbers anyday.

August 7, 2007  07:35 PM ET
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I would take Oswalt over Schilling.

August 7, 2007  08:46 PM ET
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Schilling has always played for good teams. Oswalt wins despite playing for the worst offensive team in run support over the last 10 years.
-Cassidy votes for awc

August 7, 2007  09:14 PM ET
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Santana and Oswalt haven't done enough to merit inclusion.

These guys have.

Joe Niekro
Mike Scott
Larry Dierker

August 7, 2007  09:48 PM ET
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'Santana and Oswalt haven't done enough to merit inclusion. '

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read in here...

ANWAY, Santana was never in the Astros rotation, so you can't include him anyway..

August 7, 2007  09:56 PM ET
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Jim L., I STATED "Must to have been in the Astros Organization at one point in time:"

so santana is allowed

August 7, 2007  10:08 PM ET
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I have created a group for those who want to pick games. Unlike uofmrules group, there will be head-to-head matchups, 14 regular season matchups, 3 playoff weeks including a superbowl. To apply send me your Throwdown record and why you should be a member. Also include whether or not you will be able to keep up throughout the whole season because I don't want people who will bag out at the end of the season. Go here to check it out: http://www.fannation.com/groups/show/12944

August 7, 2007  10:32 PM ET
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Daryl Kile R.I.P.

LIMA TIME!

August 7, 2007  10:35 PM ET
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'Santana and Oswalt haven't done enough to merit inclusion. '

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've read in here...

chalklounge...after thinking about it, I may have been too harsh...I apologize...

Instead, may I ask why you feel this way? Santana, since becoming a full-time starter mid-2003, has been the best pitcher in baseball hands down...his ERA, since then, is about 2.75....he won the Cy in his first full season as a starter (2004), he should have won in 2005 (where he was 2nd in ERA by .01 to Millwood, 1st in Ks, 1st in WHIP, and 1st in BAA, yet mysteriously finished 3rd in the voting...probably due to winning only 16 games cause the Twins were the 2nd lowest scoring team in the AL)...So, Colon won and he was top 3 in one category, top 10 in two others and out of the top 10 in the other two. Then, Santana won the CY again in 2006. This season, he's tied for 3rd in the AL for ERA (2.98), he's tied for 1st in BAA, he's 2nd in Ks, and 1st in WHIP...he's the only SP in the AL in the top 3 in those 4 categories...

Oswalt has a lifetime ERA of 3.11 in his 7th season with them...4 season with a sub 3.00 ERA...he pitches a lot of innings, has twice as many wins than he has losses...gets over 6.7 Ks per start...2.1 BB per start.

Just curiosu about your reasonings...I mean, if it's just wins/losses (whihc depends a lot on offesne too) then Ithink it's unfair to say these guys haven't done enough to warrant inclusuion...it's not their fault they're still very young...

August 7, 2007  10:45 PM ET
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Mike Scott anyone?

August 7, 2007  11:52 PM ET
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Beef and cheddar?

August 7, 2007  11:53 PM ET
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Hey its Texas... how about steak and ribs or chicken **** and deep fried bull intestines?

 
August 8, 2007  12:20 PM ET
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Jim. L.,

Not too harsh, you're entitled to your opinion.

Santana: On his way to potentially being an all-time great. I have no problem saying he's on his way there, but he's just not there yet. Anointing him as an all-time great is a pretty big rush to judgment. Cy Youngs indicate dominance amongst peers over a single season, and are very impressive, but this list is about being an all-timer.

Five seasons of dominance does not an all-timer make. Just ask Tim Hudson.

Career wins: 89. Career ERA: 3.17. Career Ks: 1310. Great numbers for a 28 year old? Absolutely. All-time numbers? Not yet. Patience.

Oswalt: You can make a stronger argument for him because he's been around longer and has finished top-5 in CY voting five times and has a better ERA as an Astro with 1000+ IP, all-time. Very impressive. But look at the list, and look at the guys I'm proposing to include. You'll see their resumes are longer, and therefore more impressive because of the sheer body of work.

Mike Scott: Was the Astros ace for eight consecutive seasons, peaking in '86 when he threw a no-hitter and lead the league in ERA, wins and won his only Cy Young. He was also dominate in the postseason, baffling the Mets with 19Ks in 2 CG performances in his only two appearances. His career was cut short by injuries after he finished 3rd in CY voting in '89 with 20 wins and and 3.10 ERA. For his career, third all-time for the Astros in wins (110) and fourth in strikeouts (1318).

Larry Dierker: The Astros' first 20-game winner, threw 20 CGs (309 IP) in 1969. Threw a no-hitter in '76. Finished his 14 year career with a 3.31 ERA, with 106 complete games. (Yes, the game has changed since the 70s, but Santana and Oswalt have 18 career CGs combined. That counts for something.)

Joe Niekro: I concede Oswalt has already had a more impressive career so I'll take him out of contention on my list.

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